Ep. 1: rick mcintyre - the wolf guru

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Hey gang, Ed the Fed here. Welcome to the first

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episode of Season 3 of Nature's Secret Service.

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I want to thank each and every one of you for

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hanging in there as a fan and for doing whatever

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you can to help me grow the listener base. Before

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we get started, I want to make a correction for

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an error in a previous episode. Loyal listener

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Jeff H. from Wisconsin caught an error in the

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Ambush episode of Season 2. In describing the

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area where Special Agent Vic Blasevik worked

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when he was ambushed and shot by duck poachers,

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I described Illinois as falling within the Central

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Flyway for migratory birds. Illinois actually

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falls within the Mississippi Flyway. The Central

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Flyway is farther to the west. Great catch, Jeff,

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and thank you for taking the time to email me

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with that correction. Considering I was a U .S.

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Fish and Wildlife Service Special Agent and a

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really critical aspect of my job was protecting

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migratory birds, I felt pretty stupid for making

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that mistake, but I'm very happy to be correcting

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it now. Alright people, it's time for the premiere

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of Season 3, Wolves. Here. We. Go. Okay, people

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listen up. Here we go. This is Nature's Secret

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Service, the podcast that puts you in the room

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with the men and women of wildlife law enforcement.

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I'm your host, Ed Newcomer. And this is the first

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episode of season three, which as I've told everybody

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is completely devoted to wolf reintroduction.

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and the many law enforcement cases that have

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resulted around the protection of wolves in the

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Western United States. I thought today it would

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be best to start season three with an interview

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with Rick McIntyre. Rick is probably one of the

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best known wolf ecologists, observers in the

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world. He's written many books about wolves and

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he was nice enough to Invite me to his home in

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Montana to record this very first episode of

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season three. Rick McIntyre, thank you so much

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for being on the show. I appreciate it. You welcome

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that. And you can see the cabin here is a little

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on the motto side. It's I'm not one of those

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billionaires that moved to Montana. I absolutely

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love it. It's honestly we in some of your books.

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you have referenced your cabin here in Montana.

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And this is exactly how I picture it, which is

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perfect. I would I would love to switch places

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with you, honestly. Thank you. And, you know,

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let me just say as an introduction, one of the

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things that really struck me, Rick, is that in

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one of your books, Jane Goodall introduced actually

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does a what do they call that an introduction

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for you in one of your books? And she described

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you as the ultimate wolf guru. And I have to

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say, that's high praise from a woman who basically

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changed the way we look at animal behavior and

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animal observations. That's pretty neat. Yes.

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And to tell the truth, I don't even know what

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to put into words for that. I never really expected

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that. And Yeah, you just totally blew me away.

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I mean, that's the person I respect most in the

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world. So what can I say? I'm very thankful,

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very humbled by it. And it says a lot about you

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and your reputation in the, you know, biology

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community, the community of biologists who are

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interested not just in wolves, but in, you know,

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animal conservation, wildlife conservation all

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over the world. Thank you. Now, you know, the

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reason that I If this will interest you, last

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summer, the reason I came up with the idea to

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do an entire season dedicated to wolves last

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summer, my niece and I, we visited Yellowstone

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National Park. And on the way here, we drove.

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We listened to the book you wrote about wolf

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eight and we had it on audiobook and we listened

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to it the whole time. And at some point, while

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we were in the park looking for wolves ourselves,

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we just. I said, you know, I should do a whole

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episode about wolves. And I said to my niece,

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I said, I wonder if I could get Rick McIntyre

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to be on the show. So this is a this is a big

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deal for me. I'm a little starstruck, but I'm

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really glad to have you here. Tell us a little

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bit about how you got into watching wolves and

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documenting what wolves do. Where did you get

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your first experience with that? Well, I started

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by saying I have very different different background.

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Then people like Dave Meads, Doug Smith, Mike

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Phillips, etc. I grew up in a rural part of Massachusetts,

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so I was outside all the time, fishing, watching

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animals, etc. And I was very influenced by Thoreau's

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book Walden. I lived just down the road from

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Walden Pond. I think I read that maybe when I

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was a junior in high school. And prior to that,

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I really didn't have much of an idea what to

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do for colleges, what major, what career. And

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that really helped me. And I didn't really know

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that much about what different majors there were

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in state colleges. I was interested in going

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to what now is called University of Massachusetts

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Amherst. But they did have a forestry major,

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and that seemed to be maybe the closest to what

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Thoreau was doing. He wrote a lot about trees,

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just maybe less about wildlife. There's probably

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a lot of things that have been shot and killed

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already there. So I was a major in forestry.

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And then I was very lucky for three summers,

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starting after my freshman year, I worked for

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the US Forest Service on the White Mountain National

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Forest in neighboring New Hampshire. So that's,

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I guess, where my outdoor resource management

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connected career began. And I'm still not sure

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how this happened. And in a way, it's not quite

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logical. But I got an offer to go to Alaska at

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Denali. And that was my first park service naturalist

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job. By that time, I'd already worked in some

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remote areas. The guy in charge, Bill Truesdell,

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the chief naturalist, he'd already asked me,

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do you mind working in remote areas and living

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in remote areas? And I said, no, please let me

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do that. And he said, well, we have this visitor

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center. It's 66 miles out. It's my Olsen visitor

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center. There's quarters in the basement. One

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naturalist is there and one maintenance worker.

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Would that work for you? Yeah, sign me up for

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that. Nice. So right away, even though I was

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a new guy, there was a big turnover that year,

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even though I was a new guy, I was in this primo

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position. And that was the first summer that

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I saw wolves. And you were working there as a

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naturalist. Yeah. So was your encounter with

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wolves there just, you know, coincidental with

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you being a naturalist or was part of your job

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associated with the wolves? Well, let's see.

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At that time, 1976, wolves were pretty hard to

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see. Whereas you pretty much could see grizzlies

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every day, moose, scaraboo, doll sheep every

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day. So no offense to any of those animals. I

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wouldn't want to give offense to a grizzly bear.

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Definitely not. Yeah, wolves were in a whole

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different category. And so I remember I was in

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the visitor center in my ranger uniform and there

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was a report of two wolves down the road like

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30 miles. And it happened to be a period in the

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afternoon where they didn't need me to be there.

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You may know in the Park Service we have something

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called roving interpretation. Right. So that's

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when you're away from the visitor center, the

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campground, whatever. You go out to where the

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people are. And you're kind of like a street

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preacher where you say, folks, come on over here

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and we're going to do a talk on bears or whatever.

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Right. So it is valid to go to where the people

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are. So anyway, I got out there just in time

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to get a glimpse of two wolves that were trying

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to get a moose calf. It was maybe only a few

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minutes, but I got to see wolves. And that was

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it for that year. Wow. You know, I ended up being

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there for 15 seasons. Right. And You may or may

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not be familiar with Gordon Haber. He was an

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independent wolf researcher back then. And so

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I got to know him. He gave me some tips on where

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to look. I got to know Dave Meach. He was considered

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the top wolf biologist in the world. And so over

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the years that I worked there, I gradually learned

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how to... do better at finding wolves. This might

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be a good place to talk about kind of the history

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of wolves in the U .S. and kind of where we were

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at that time, 1976, mid -70s. You were up in

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Denali in Alaska. There were wolves there. There

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still are wolves up there. But in the lower 48

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states, can you just kind of describe the situation

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that wolves were in in the 70s and how they got

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there just briefly? Yeah, I actually did a lot

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of research on that in later years for some books

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that I was writing. When Europeans first came

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to North America, whales were a very common animal.

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And as Europeans settled, starting with the East

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Coast, I came across a reference that in, I think

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it was in the 1600s, what is now New York City.

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The Dutch government, they controlled New York

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at that time, and the citizens were so worried

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about having wolves on Manhattan Island that

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they offered to pay you gold coins for every

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wolf that you killed in New York City. Bounty

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in New York City on wolves. So if they had wolves

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on Manhattan Island, there were wolves everywhere.

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There were wolves everywhere. Yeah. I think it's

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fair to say by that time, certainly English people

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and most other folks from European countries,

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they couldn't conceive of a more backward place

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to civilize a place that still had wolves, whereas

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they had already gotten rid of them. Yeah, what

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you're describing is really like the very earliest

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stages of European settlers' war on wolves. And

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once we became a country in the United States,

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That really became U .S. policy in the western

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United States to destroy predators in general.

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So to jump from Manhattan to places like Yellowstone

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is not that much of a jump. So both in Denali

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here, all the major national parks that originally

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had wolf populations, even the National Park

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Rangers, felt that the right thing to do was

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to kill them off. Now, if you could go back and

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interview those Rangers, they wouldn't be able

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to understand. Well, why would you object to

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that? Right. Yeah. So I think the way to explain

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it is to them, their job was to protect the quote

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unquote good animals. Right. The animals that

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people. could make use of, could eat them, could

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use their pelts, etc. Even though yellowstone

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hunting was prohibited, they still had the sense

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we need to protect all these ungulates, these

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plantain animals. And so there was a big problem

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with poachers coming in at that time, particularly

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killing bison because they could get a ton of

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money for a bison head and skull and everything.

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So it was the Wild West back then in Yellowstone,

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and those were extremely dangerous guys. So the

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Rangers back then were big, big, big heroes that

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that should be at the Yellowstone show. Not that

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I'm telling you, you know, it's funny you say

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that because on previous episodes of my podcast,

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we have talked about the earliest. law enforcement

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officers in the U .S. for wildlife. And it was

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a super dangerous job. And a lot of them got

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killed and gotten shootouts. And the wildlife,

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as you talk about the good animals, there, you

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know, around the turn of the century, 1900, there

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were there was a huge market for them for restaurants

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in the East Coast, you know, where market animals

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from elk and deer and bison and ducks and geese

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would end up. commercialized and it was causing

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widespread, you know, destruction of wildlife.

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Yeah. So yeah, you're right. I mean, the war

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on predators was really to protect some of those

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interests. But it was it was pretty pervasive.

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When was the last wolf in Yellowstone eliminated?

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To get here, you likely drove past the spot.

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Do you remember Soda Butte Cone in Lamar Valley?

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The story, as we understand it, is in 1926. the

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local rangers that were stationed in that valley.

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I don't know if they deliberately shot a bison

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to lure the wolves in or if it died on its own,

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but they surrounded it with steel wolf traps.

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Whatever day it was, they came out two wolves

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were trapped. They were shot and killed. And

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as far as we know, that was it. 1926 was the

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last. One of the great things for us that you

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know that background is we oftentimes see walls

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very close to that rock foam, that geothermal

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formation, and that would be the Junction Butte

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Pack. And for many years, the Crystal Creek Pack

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lived there, then the Jewett Peak Pack, some

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of our most famous packs, most famous walls.

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So, of course, none of those wolves know any

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of that history, but for us, it's really something.

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What's your understanding? Yeah, you know, I

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think 1926 is kind of it's certain. That's when

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we think wolves disappeared from Yellowstone.

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But, you know, it's within 10 or 15 years of

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that either way that pretty much wolves were

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extirpated from the entire Western U .S. with

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the exception of, you know, small pocket and

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Great Lakes area. What what's your understanding

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of what happened in Yellowstone Park once wolves

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were eliminated? Well, one thing for sure was

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that the elk population exploded in numbers,

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right? And it's hard to believe this now. And

00:15:58.309 --> 00:16:06.230

because it seems such a strange thing, but. When

00:16:06.230 --> 00:16:12.529

I started in here in 94, there was an older guy,

00:16:12.649 --> 00:16:15.850

Ranger, who had retired and he had worked in

00:16:15.850 --> 00:16:18.529

Yellowstone when he was younger. And he said,

00:16:18.850 --> 00:16:21.110

I guess it was back in the 60s, he was issued

00:16:21.110 --> 00:16:24.990

a rifle and was told, hey, whenever you have

00:16:24.990 --> 00:16:29.500

time, especially in the winter. just pull up

00:16:29.500 --> 00:16:32.000

along the side of the road and shoot and kill

00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:35.700

as many elk as you can. Wow. That was their program

00:16:35.700 --> 00:16:39.519

to alleviate what they acknowledge was an overpopulation

00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:44.120

of elk. And what I mean by that is and you're

00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:46.279

probably familiar with this. They were doing

00:16:46.279 --> 00:16:51.879

a lot of damage to edible species such as aspen

00:16:51.879 --> 00:16:55.340

and willow. Right. And in my early years, I would

00:16:55.340 --> 00:16:59.820

take people on nature walks to a site where some

00:16:59.820 --> 00:17:03.840

of the first walls were released in 95, the Crystal

00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:06.779

Creek pack. And literally every one of those

00:17:06.779 --> 00:17:08.819

shoots had been browsed to death. Every one of

00:17:08.819 --> 00:17:12.119

them. Interesting. And aspens don't live long.

00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:14.740

And so we're getting pretty close to the point

00:17:14.740 --> 00:17:19.680

where those elderly trees were dying. And if

00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:22.299

enough of them died, that's it. Period. There's

00:17:22.299 --> 00:17:28.859

no more aspens, at least in that place. So Then

00:17:28.859 --> 00:17:31.680

within a few years, I would continue to either

00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:34.980

hike up there on my own or take people there.

00:17:35.380 --> 00:17:38.819

And there was just a dramatic transformation

00:17:38.819 --> 00:17:44.000

that now those chutes were surviving. And the

00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:49.579

last few times that I went up there, what I would

00:17:49.579 --> 00:17:52.940

have called chutes 10, 15 years ago, they're

00:17:52.940 --> 00:17:58.940

20, 25 feet tall. the growth is so dense, you

00:17:58.940 --> 00:18:01.460

can hardly walk through them. It's like a bamboo

00:18:01.460 --> 00:18:09.420

forest. And so aspen is a great food for all

00:18:09.420 --> 00:18:12.200

plant -eating species and of course good for

00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:14.839

beaver as well. That was one of the things that

00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:17.000

really struck me as I was kind of reading about

00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:20.539

the history of wolves here in that, you know,

00:18:20.660 --> 00:18:23.660

I think one of the unintended consequences of

00:18:23.660 --> 00:18:26.539

the wolves coming and causing the elk to move

00:18:26.539 --> 00:18:29.400

brings the aspen back. Nobody expected beavers

00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:32.640

to spontaneously return to the park. They weren't

00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:34.640

released or anything. They just showed up on

00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:36.700

their own, which is pretty neat. Well, you think

00:18:36.700 --> 00:18:40.960

if you're a beaver and you're smarter than the

00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:43.720

average beaver, that's referenced if you know

00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:49.119

who a yogi bear. Anyway, yeah, it's just an amazing

00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:54.309

story, conservation story that And, you know,

00:18:54.309 --> 00:18:58.230

in the big picture, just an example that we're

00:18:58.230 --> 00:19:01.289

slowly moving forward, we're slowly advancing

00:19:01.289 --> 00:19:04.950

in conservation and understanding how wild things

00:19:04.950 --> 00:19:08.670

work. Because I'm sure if you interviewed park

00:19:08.670 --> 00:19:12.130

rangers back in the 20s, you know, everyone would

00:19:12.130 --> 00:19:13.869

have agreed, yeah, the right thing to do is let's

00:19:13.869 --> 00:19:15.970

get rid of all these wolves as fast as we can

00:19:15.970 --> 00:19:19.440

and then we'll have more elk. Right. What could

00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:22.099

be wrong with that? Right. More out the better

00:19:22.099 --> 00:19:25.940

for everyone. By the way, there's this great

00:19:25.940 --> 00:19:29.480

story I found in my research. I think this was

00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:34.019

in the late 30s. The guy that was the chief naturalist

00:19:34.019 --> 00:19:39.119

at the time, I don't recall his name. He maybe

00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:41.519

had a bit of a better science background than

00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:44.680

most of the other Rangers and naturalists. And.

00:19:45.449 --> 00:19:48.430

After work, he would just walk around Mammoth,

00:19:48.430 --> 00:19:51.990

just stroll around. And there came a time where

00:19:51.990 --> 00:19:56.950

he began to notice things. It started with just

00:19:56.950 --> 00:20:01.269

a few elk that seemed to be sick, that seemed

00:20:01.269 --> 00:20:06.930

to be in decline and then dying. And after a

00:20:06.930 --> 00:20:09.529

while, there were more elk that went through

00:20:09.529 --> 00:20:13.490

that and then more elk and more elk. And it was

00:20:13.490 --> 00:20:15.569

some type of infectious disease. I'm not sure

00:20:15.569 --> 00:20:18.990

if they knew what it was. Interesting. So they

00:20:18.990 --> 00:20:21.029

were starting to see the ramifications of the

00:20:21.029 --> 00:20:23.970

overpopulation. Well, here's the early as the

00:20:23.970 --> 00:20:29.309

30s. Here's the point of the story. He did. And

00:20:29.309 --> 00:20:31.970

there was some type of a science conference that

00:20:31.970 --> 00:20:34.490

came up and it was based in Yellowstone. And

00:20:34.490 --> 00:20:37.049

so naturalists and rangers and superintendents

00:20:37.049 --> 00:20:39.670

from all over the country came here and he was

00:20:39.670 --> 00:20:42.329

one of the scheduled speakers. And everything

00:20:42.329 --> 00:20:48.529

went well until he got off to speed. And he essentially

00:20:48.529 --> 00:20:52.329

said, you know, I've been thinking about this.

00:20:52.750 --> 00:20:55.730

And he talked about how long he'd been in Yellowstone

00:20:55.730 --> 00:20:58.190

and talked about his life in the Mammoth area.

00:20:58.230 --> 00:21:00.869

Talked about strolling around in the evening,

00:21:00.890 --> 00:21:05.130

seeing elk that had some type of a disease that

00:21:05.130 --> 00:21:08.609

he now realized was contagious and how many elk

00:21:08.609 --> 00:21:12.619

had died from that contagious disease. And this

00:21:12.619 --> 00:21:17.359

was the point of his talk that just blew the

00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:21.980

room apart. He said, you know, maybe, maybe if

00:21:21.980 --> 00:21:25.039

we hadn't killed off all the wolves, those sick

00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:28.640

elk would have been an easy prey to the wolves.

00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:32.359

And if the wolves killed most of those initial

00:21:32.359 --> 00:21:36.799

sick elk, maybe then that infection wouldn't

00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:41.549

have spread. But at that time, What he said was

00:21:41.549 --> 00:21:47.069

so...athema, is that the word? Yeah, right. That

00:21:47.069 --> 00:21:49.029

shocked everybody. He literally had to resign

00:21:49.029 --> 00:21:51.490

and leave. Wow. Yeah, they didn't want to hear

00:21:51.490 --> 00:21:54.490

that. Wow. So they had really bought into, hey,

00:21:54.630 --> 00:21:59.769

let's, you know, we got to keep on. We had to

00:21:59.769 --> 00:22:02.250

kill the walls. Moral is better. After that,

00:22:02.710 --> 00:22:05.569

yeah. That was the 30s, you said? That was the

00:22:05.569 --> 00:22:10.019

late 30s, yeah. That's in the anthology I did,

00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:13.420

War Against the Wolf, with the guy's name. One

00:22:13.420 --> 00:22:15.519

of your other books, too, referenced that, you

00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:20.599

know, around mid 1940s Aldo Leopold started to

00:22:20.599 --> 00:22:22.539

recommend bringing wolves back to Yellowstone.

00:22:22.740 --> 00:22:24.500

So I think you mentioned it was in your book.

00:22:24.539 --> 00:22:28.099

You mentioned it was 1946 was when Aldo Leopold

00:22:28.099 --> 00:22:30.680

first proposed it, I think. Yes. And that was

00:22:30.680 --> 00:22:34.019

in a review of a wolf book that US Fish and Wildlife

00:22:34.019 --> 00:22:36.609

guy had written. I forget the name of that. Yeah,

00:22:36.609 --> 00:22:40.569

let's talk about Leopold for a moment. So yes,

00:22:40.569 --> 00:22:42.890

he essentially said, you know, maybe we should

00:22:42.890 --> 00:22:45.549

consider bringing Will's back to Yellowstone.

00:22:45.789 --> 00:22:48.049

I don't know that he used the word reintroduction,

00:22:48.170 --> 00:22:52.009

but he came up with the idea and he was very

00:22:52.009 --> 00:22:55.230

highly respected. So this was maybe eight, ten

00:22:55.230 --> 00:22:58.289

years after the previous story where the guy

00:22:58.289 --> 00:23:01.470

was ridiculed. So he was very respected. And

00:23:01.470 --> 00:23:07.089

that, let's just say with a flame that It took

00:23:07.089 --> 00:23:10.230

some time, but it eventually caught on. Yeah,

00:23:10.230 --> 00:23:13.250

and that's a good place to, I think, jump forward

00:23:13.250 --> 00:23:17.769

a little bit in our story here in that I think

00:23:17.769 --> 00:23:20.650

most of my listeners will know that in 1995,

00:23:20.829 --> 00:23:22.670

the U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the Park

00:23:22.670 --> 00:23:25.829

Service collaborated to reintroduce wolves to

00:23:25.829 --> 00:23:28.430

Yellowstone finally. I want to use that 50 years

00:23:28.430 --> 00:23:34.299

after. Aldo Leopold proposed it again. And interestingly,

00:23:34.500 --> 00:23:36.339

one of the things I loved about reading your

00:23:36.339 --> 00:23:38.220

books is you kind of, I don't know if you remember

00:23:38.220 --> 00:23:40.519

this because you've written so many books, but

00:23:40.519 --> 00:23:43.000

you actually tell the story of how Aldo Leopold,

00:23:43.019 --> 00:23:46.160

as a young ranger, actually killed a wolf in

00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:49.940

New Mexico, I believe, and lived to regret it.

00:23:50.599 --> 00:23:54.799

Yes, he famously said as he walked up to the

00:23:54.799 --> 00:23:58.240

dying wolf, he saw a bright It's very emotional

00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:00.559

to tell the story. It's emotional to read it.

00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:03.019

Yeah. In the eyes of the wolf and then it died.

00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:07.500

Yeah. And that's in his essay, Thinking Like

00:24:07.500 --> 00:24:10.680

a Mountain. Right. And he was I'm sure you know,

00:24:10.819 --> 00:24:14.640

a wildlife professor. And he was very, very influential.

00:24:15.220 --> 00:24:20.609

And so he played a big, big role in. starting

00:24:20.609 --> 00:24:24.029

to turn the tide on acceptance of wolves and

00:24:24.029 --> 00:24:27.710

to see their value. But in that original essay,

00:24:29.170 --> 00:24:33.210

in a way that anyone could understand it, not

00:24:33.210 --> 00:24:37.869

in an academic way, he talked about killing off

00:24:37.869 --> 00:24:40.309

all the wolves mean we're going to have a lot

00:24:40.309 --> 00:24:43.430

more deer, and deer in that particular, I think

00:24:43.430 --> 00:24:48.819

it was part of Arizona, and having Too many deer

00:24:48.819 --> 00:24:51.539

is a bad thing, right? And he talked about the

00:24:51.539 --> 00:24:53.779

damage that they did to eating too much of the

00:24:53.779 --> 00:24:55.859

vegetation like we've been talking about with

00:24:55.859 --> 00:24:59.119

the elk here So he could really see the big picture

00:24:59.119 --> 00:25:01.680

and I think that's a really good way to phrase

00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:06.299

this that the story about the Park Service guy

00:25:06.299 --> 00:25:09.460

here that had to quit because all of his peers

00:25:09.460 --> 00:25:12.299

could not see the big picture. They were not

00:25:12.299 --> 00:25:14.400

ready to see the big picture. Yeah, not ready.

00:25:14.859 --> 00:25:17.299

Yes. So he was ahead of his time by too many

00:25:17.299 --> 00:25:24.220

years. And but I like to tell that story because

00:25:24.220 --> 00:25:27.940

to give him credit for that. Absolutely. Yeah,

00:25:27.940 --> 00:25:31.140

for sure. So this is this is actually good because

00:25:31.140 --> 00:25:33.980

now now let's jump ahead to 1995. You've been

00:25:33.980 --> 00:25:37.519

working seasonally in Denali for 15 years now

00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:40.039

and have had a lot of experience observing wolves

00:25:40.039 --> 00:25:43.240

up there. How is it you came to Yellowstone National

00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:46.779

Park in mid 90s? I was well aware that they were

00:25:46.779 --> 00:25:52.339

looking at bringing wolves back. Back then, my

00:25:52.339 --> 00:25:55.680

winter job was on the Rio Grande River at Big

00:25:55.680 --> 00:26:01.279

Bend National Park. And so I called up here and

00:26:01.279 --> 00:26:04.269

I had always were, except for being a firefighter

00:26:04.269 --> 00:26:07.009

my first year, my park service jobs were always

00:26:07.009 --> 00:26:11.569

as a seasonal naturalist. So I called the chief

00:26:11.569 --> 00:26:13.829

naturalist office here, ended up speaking to

00:26:13.829 --> 00:26:16.930

the assistant chief naturalist Tom Tankersley.

00:26:17.609 --> 00:26:23.619

And if you're a park service person, it's easy

00:26:23.619 --> 00:26:25.900

to talk to other parks service person, you know,

00:26:26.059 --> 00:26:28.240

you guys. Yeah, Fish and Wildlife is the same.

00:26:28.420 --> 00:26:31.880

Yeah, we're all the same. Yeah, exactly. You

00:26:31.880 --> 00:26:34.220

speak the same language. You kind of know. Yeah.

00:26:34.220 --> 00:26:37.240

Yeah. And so, you know, right away, he understood

00:26:37.240 --> 00:26:43.000

that I had 16 seasons worth of experience being

00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:47.099

around wolves. Yeah. And all of those jobs were

00:26:47.099 --> 00:26:49.779

essentially doing public programs, working with

00:26:49.779 --> 00:26:53.690

the public. being a naturalist, et cetera. And

00:26:53.690 --> 00:26:59.670

I had reinstatement status due to a brief permanent

00:26:59.670 --> 00:27:05.170

federal job with the Forest Service. So he was

00:27:05.170 --> 00:27:08.869

in a position where, because of that, he could

00:27:08.869 --> 00:27:11.049

just hire me right off the bat. He didn't have

00:27:11.049 --> 00:27:16.490

to check the register. And so we agreed that,

00:27:16.690 --> 00:27:20.250

yes, he would bring me on for the summer of 94.

00:27:20.730 --> 00:27:24.589

I would be called the wolf interpreter. And my

00:27:24.589 --> 00:27:28.109

job would be everything I did would be on walls.

00:27:28.390 --> 00:27:32.309

The big campfire programs with 400 people, nature

00:27:32.309 --> 00:27:34.750

walks, you know, everything all about walls.

00:27:35.329 --> 00:27:39.369

And it was an easy thing for me to to figure

00:27:39.369 --> 00:27:42.130

out, well, here's how I'm going to do that. It's

00:27:42.130 --> 00:27:44.210

the most natural thing in the world for me to

00:27:44.210 --> 00:27:46.529

spend my whole summer every day in my ranger

00:27:46.529 --> 00:27:50.650

uniform, talking to people and explaining the

00:27:50.650 --> 00:27:53.230

Wolf Introduction. And then on January 12th of

00:27:53.230 --> 00:27:58.049

95, I wasn't working in the winters back then,

00:27:58.990 --> 00:28:04.609

but a stock trailer arrived in Yellowstone. It

00:28:04.609 --> 00:28:06.309

stopped just down the road from where we are

00:28:06.309 --> 00:28:12.529

now. And wolves from two different packs were

00:28:12.529 --> 00:28:15.859

in the trailer. The Crystal Creek pack There

00:28:15.859 --> 00:28:18.420

were four members, the parents, the alpha male,

00:28:18.519 --> 00:28:22.440

the alpha female, and four male pups. And then

00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:26.099

the other three cages had the original members

00:28:26.099 --> 00:28:30.299

of the Rose Creek pack, a mother wolf and her

00:28:30.299 --> 00:28:32.940

daughter, and then an unrelated male, wolf 10.

00:28:34.700 --> 00:28:40.619

And so it was a giant media thing. The press

00:28:40.619 --> 00:28:43.440

people were there. They had a hidden acclamation

00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:45.640

pen. They had death threats against the walls.

00:28:46.039 --> 00:28:48.059

I remember in your book you described that actually

00:28:48.059 --> 00:28:50.380

there had to be armed Park Service Rangers there

00:28:50.380 --> 00:28:52.440

24 hours a day. That's right. And that was in

00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:54.519

the middle of the winter and they were the unsung

00:28:54.519 --> 00:28:58.039

heroes of the operation. Totally. But basically

00:28:58.039 --> 00:29:00.759

they put them in a pen that was maybe about an

00:29:00.759 --> 00:29:10.730

acre with chain link fencing. and then fed them

00:29:10.730 --> 00:29:12.710

a couple of times a week with animals that had

00:29:12.710 --> 00:29:16.309

been hit by cars and run over. So it was initially

00:29:16.309 --> 00:29:19.029

the Crystal Creek pack and then the Rose Creek

00:29:19.029 --> 00:29:22.450

pack and then a third pack later arrived, what

00:29:22.450 --> 00:29:26.450

became known as the Soda Butte pack. And their

00:29:26.450 --> 00:29:31.269

pen was located, oh boy, maybe half a mile from

00:29:31.269 --> 00:29:34.210

where the last wolves were killed, that Soda

00:29:34.210 --> 00:29:37.490

Butte Cone area I talked about. We had this huge

00:29:37.490 --> 00:29:40.650

overpopulation of elk, I think over 20 ,000.

00:29:40.650 --> 00:29:44.029

Right. Mostly in that same northern area. So

00:29:44.029 --> 00:29:46.569

you think of wolves that specialize in hunting

00:29:46.569 --> 00:29:49.509

elk. They're looking through the chain link fencing

00:29:49.509 --> 00:29:52.250

every day for two months, and they're thinking

00:29:52.250 --> 00:29:54.950

one, two, three, four. Dinner, dinner, dinner.

00:29:55.170 --> 00:29:57.630

Ten thousand and one, ten thousand and two, twenty

00:29:57.630 --> 00:30:00.089

thousand and one. And they're thinking, you know,

00:30:00.089 --> 00:30:02.150

maybe this isn't such a bad deal after all. If

00:30:02.150 --> 00:30:03.789

we can just get out of here. We can get out of

00:30:03.789 --> 00:30:06.279

here. Yeah. I did make a note of this from from

00:30:06.279 --> 00:30:09.579

one of your books, you said that in 1995, there

00:30:09.579 --> 00:30:12.759

were about 20 ,000 elk in the park. And I think

00:30:12.759 --> 00:30:16.539

the accepted level for what they call carrying

00:30:16.539 --> 00:30:20.960

capacity is only 5 ,000. What is carrying capacity?

00:30:20.980 --> 00:30:24.299

What does that mean? Well, it would be, let's

00:30:24.299 --> 00:30:26.779

say if you're a farmer or rancher and you have

00:30:26.779 --> 00:30:31.579

a certain pasture or an area that is fenced off,

00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:38.250

you have to figure out Well, there's enough grass

00:30:38.250 --> 00:30:41.670

to feed on for I'll make up some numbers, 10

00:30:41.670 --> 00:30:44.390

cattle or 30 sheep. If you have more, you have

00:30:44.390 --> 00:30:46.569

a problem. Right. They run out of food. Right.

00:30:46.670 --> 00:30:55.190

Yeah. So. It's hard to believe this, but in my

00:30:55.190 --> 00:30:59.369

early years here, I had a retired park ranger

00:30:59.369 --> 00:31:03.210

that kind of volunteered to help me, and he was

00:31:03.210 --> 00:31:07.599

a very wise man. And he had worked in Yellowstone

00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:10.200

several decades earlier in his early career.

00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:15.240

And I totally get it. People would find this

00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:18.220

hard to believe, but it was the truth. He said

00:31:18.220 --> 00:31:21.619

every winter, of course, would issue him a rifle

00:31:21.619 --> 00:31:24.660

and say, whenever you can, you shoot a lot of

00:31:24.660 --> 00:31:28.000

elk. Yeah. We need to reduce the numbers. That

00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:30.599

was their management program. Interesting. Yeah.

00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:34.880

We'll just shoot them. Yeah. It's hard to believe

00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:38.660

that. Yeah. Yeah. And after a while, the public

00:31:38.660 --> 00:31:41.640

really rose up against that. I mean, if you came

00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:44.339

with your family in a range, it pulls up and

00:31:44.339 --> 00:31:47.220

takes the gun and starts blasting away. You know,

00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:49.640

your kid would be crying. Yeah. Daddy, why is

00:31:49.640 --> 00:31:53.960

he killing all those animals? Yeah. And, you

00:31:53.960 --> 00:31:57.539

know, it's so anti. Yeah. And it's funny, too,

00:31:57.539 --> 00:32:01.200

because it's almost like a recognition that there's

00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:03.500

a problem. There's too many of them. Yeah. But

00:32:03.500 --> 00:32:06.299

as you were talking earlier about how they refuse

00:32:06.299 --> 00:32:10.059

to see what, what is the obvious answer staring

00:32:10.059 --> 00:32:12.059

them in the face is returning the environment

00:32:12.059 --> 00:32:16.220

to its natural state. 1995 was a very important

00:32:16.220 --> 00:32:18.880

year for wolves, obviously because of the reintroduction,

00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:21.400

but there's also a very important law enforcement

00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:25.380

case that comes up in 1995. Um, you mentioned

00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:27.720

these packs that were brought down from. from

00:32:27.720 --> 00:32:30.000

Alberta and one of them being the Rose Creek

00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:33.559

pack. And you mentioned a Wolf 10. Can you just

00:32:33.559 --> 00:32:38.960

describe that situation in 95 with Wolf 10, not

00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:40.779

before what happened, what we're going to talk

00:32:40.779 --> 00:32:43.359

about at the very end. But what was the family

00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:47.740

situation with Sheriff 10? Yeah. Yeah, it's quite

00:32:47.740 --> 00:32:53.269

the story. So I think I mentioned that. pack,

00:32:53.289 --> 00:32:56.009

the Rose Creek pack was in the same horse trailer

00:32:56.009 --> 00:33:01.950

as the Crystal Creek wolves. Right. And six in

00:33:01.950 --> 00:33:06.549

the Crystal Creek pack, but only three in Rose

00:33:06.549 --> 00:33:09.410

Creek. And that was the mother wolf number nine

00:33:09.410 --> 00:33:14.569

and her daughter, a pup number seven. And how

00:33:14.569 --> 00:33:17.200

do you number why are wolves numbered? Sometimes

00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:18.680

they're numbered. Sometimes they're not numbered.

00:33:18.759 --> 00:33:21.400

How does that work? Sure. It's pretty simple.

00:33:21.539 --> 00:33:24.519

Any wolf that has a radio caller gets a number.

00:33:24.519 --> 00:33:29.039

Got it. And then but that's only maybe 25, 30

00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:32.640

percent of all the walls. We definitely don't

00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:35.099

want to give them a human type name like Ed.

00:33:35.180 --> 00:33:38.559

Right. No offense. That's OK. We'll give the

00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:40.819

best looking guy the name Ed. OK, that sounds

00:33:40.819 --> 00:33:45.740

good. That sounds good. So, yeah, to be somewhat

00:33:45.740 --> 00:33:49.579

scientific, we would refer to it by something

00:33:49.579 --> 00:33:52.039

about its appearance. So there were two black

00:33:52.039 --> 00:33:54.460

brother walls. One had a big chest blaze. The

00:33:54.460 --> 00:33:57.099

other had a small blaze. So big blaze, small

00:33:57.099 --> 00:33:59.940

blaze. Got it. Et cetera. But then if they got

00:33:59.940 --> 00:34:01.920

a collar, they became a number. That's right.

00:34:02.019 --> 00:34:04.940

Yeah. And it would just be in sequence. We're

00:34:04.940 --> 00:34:08.940

in the. At least the fifteen hundreds now. But

00:34:08.940 --> 00:34:14.199

getting back to Rose Creek, so. We assumed that

00:34:14.199 --> 00:34:17.039

the maid of number nine the mother wolf in the

00:34:17.039 --> 00:34:20.119

Rose Creek pack had been killed in Canada, okay?

00:34:20.739 --> 00:34:22.920

They couldn't find him couldn't catch him if

00:34:22.920 --> 00:34:27.059

he was alive So a single mother with one pup

00:34:27.059 --> 00:34:30.239

not much of a pack right, but they caught a lone

00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:35.880

male a big adult and he was called wolf ten and

00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:38.579

So they thought well, you know, maybe they'll

00:34:38.579 --> 00:34:46.079

like each other so They were in the same horse

00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:50.420

trailer for however many days it took to drive

00:34:50.420 --> 00:34:53.300

them down here. So they would have got the scent

00:34:53.300 --> 00:34:59.300

of each other. There'd be vocalizations. So let's

00:34:59.300 --> 00:35:01.519

say they would have had some awareness of each

00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:04.980

other. And the mother wolf, I mean, this is speculation,

00:35:04.980 --> 00:35:08.079

but, you know, I think it's fair to say she might

00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:11.300

be thinking, gee, I need a guy. And there's a

00:35:11.300 --> 00:35:14.099

guy here. He doesn't seem to have a girlfriend.

00:35:15.019 --> 0